Official Luthiers Forum!

[QUOTE=Don Williams] Umm....yeah....insurance liability. I knew there was something sticking in my brain. Unless you have the insurance, you're really at risk for a law suit. You might want to have the people also sign liability releases too. Get that draw up by a lawyer...[/QUOTE]

That really isn't going to help you, most of these agreements aren't worth the paper they are printed on -- in terms of "real" protection from liability. Lawyers are crafty, they can get around such things.

Just get an umbrella policy. They are pretty inexpensive.Brock Poling38929.8990277778

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I'd stick with your plan.. family yes, friends no.. Just tell them your homeowners policy won't cover this sort of activity so you are sorry but you are no longer able to allow it. (and it might even be true!!!)

Oh, one more thing... where do you live? Of course you know all of us here at the OLF are family.... Joe Beaver38929.9484259259

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Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust

Thanks, guys!

Sadly, you are 100% right that you have to worry about liability even for friends. Given the other things that have bothered me, the liability issue easily pushes it over the top. Family yes, friends no.

Joe, I live in Tustin. If you are ever in the area let me know and we'll hook up!

C'mon guys, I think you are all pushing the insurance button too hard. As stated, this is not his business, it is a hobby. It would be no different than having some friends over playing poker and somebody falls off a chair. Or having friends over for dinner and somebody burns themself. You would never consider an extra policy for that, why is this any different? He is not charging fees or operating a business. Taking an insurance policy out so you can have a few friends over is nuts.

Cheers!

John

As coincidence would have it, I happen to be an insurance coverage lawyer who represents policyholders for a living.   Here's some general thoughts.

First, many (if not most) homeowners policies contain a "business pursuits" exclusion to their liability coverage. Even if you consider yourself as a hobby builder, the insurance company may see it as a business. It obviously depends on the facts and circumstances, but if you have ever sold a guitar, an insurer might try to deny coverage on this basis. Regardless of whether you ultimately win that issue, you may have to spend your resources fighting two wars (one against the insurer and one against the personal injury claimant) until it is resolved. A personal umbrella policy is not expensive and can fill in the gaps in your homeowner's policy.

Second, even if you have insurance, getting sued is still an unpleasant thing. It can take a tremendous emotional toll. It can quickly ruin a friendship. And there is always a risk that someone's damages (including pain & suffering, etc.) could exceed your policy limits or fall within some coverage exclusion that you didn't realize was in your policy.

Third, having good insurance invites a lawsuit. Many people who would otherwise lean againt suing a friend may decide that they might as well make a claim, because it's not coming out of your pocket anyway.   They don't always think about the impact of coverage exclusions, increased premiums, or the overall hassle of dealing with a lawsuit.

Fourth, if someone has an accident in your shop, there's a pretty good chance that a personal injury lawyer will find a way to blame you. Does your table saw still have the guard on it, or did you remove that safety feature?   How many other power tools in your shop have safety equipment removed? The answers to those questions never sound good when the plaintiff is sitting there with missing fingers.

Here's an interesting tidbit. A couple months ago I took a one-week class at the William Ng School of Woodworking, building a Greene and Greene style end table. (Very cool class, and I highly recommend William's school.) William told us that he has to pay a liability insurance premium of something like $100 per student per class (tuition for the class was something like $600). There's probably a reason the insurers charge so much for coverage for woodworking classes --- they probably create a big liability risk.

With all this said, accidents are rare. I would not consider the liability concern to be a critical factor in my decision about whether to let people work in my shop. But given that I am on the fence anyway, and adding the liability risk to the equation, I find myself asking this question: If someone really wants to build a guitar, why don't they do what I did and start building one at home? Why do they need to build it in my shop? I built my first guitar (an electric)sitting on the ashphalt in my driveway (I didn't even have an "outside" chair) with four woodworking tools --- a router, a jigsaw, a hand-held belt sander, and a palm sander. It doesn't take a big shop.

I'll continue to mull it over, but at the moment I'm inclined to move to a "family only" policy.

As much as I hate having people mess with my tools and shop, I'm happy that over here lawyers and the medical insurance thing don't decide who can come into my shop or not -- with all due respect.   I would be in trouble with some of my antique machines if I ran a business and had employees though.

Actually I'd love to have someone locally to discuss building and even work with, I'm sure it can be both fun and rewarding for everybody involved. However, it would require that everybody had a basic understanding of what goes into a specialized shops like this, and most of the rules would be self evident. It seems that some of the regulars in your shop do not have the necessary understanding of how much time and effort goes into shop maintenance and the close tolerances we spend so much time setting our tools to why it has to be like that. It is like common sense and politeness in foreign cultures; it is easy to make blunders when you don't know why and how things are done, but if you still don't follow the custom after you do know, you are just impolite and should get treated as such.

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

[QUOTE=Michael McBroom] I cut a finger with a very sharp chisel a couple of years ago, and drove myself down to the emergency room. Turns out the cut, while deep, was so clean that I didn't need stitches, but a tetanus shot and a 10-minute talk with the doctor resulted in a bill of over $800. [/QUOTE]

I did the exact same thing with a chisel in my palm, only it took 6 stiches and cost me $1200.

Lots of helpful comments in this thread.

I work at a law firm (IP law, which doesn't help here much, but makes you think defensively) and it occurs to me that if you accept a fee you create the impression that you are running a business.

I tend to agree with the move to a family only policy.

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"Building guitars looks hard, but it's actually much harder than it looks." Tom Buck

Steve, I thought the same thing. Charging a fee could give a lawyer the fuel to claim a person was running a business. Then comes the IRS not to mention the local authorities wanting tax filings, business licenses, added income statements...blah, blah, blah.

Sounds like a big headache.

I second, or is it now third, the family only policy.

I could see family being as much or more of a pain than friends sometimes... But it'd be a clean arbitrary way to limit the number of people in your shop. What's the possibility of just setting a limit, and saying "I can only handle two students/projects in my shop at a time." If friends have to wait a couple months in a queue to spend time in your shop, I think it raises the perceived value of what you're giving to them, and they'd be more likely to use their time more wisely. You might also weed out those who are less serious about learning luthiery.

Maybe you could give a hint by posting a list of luthiers who offer classes along with the tuition price (and local hotel rates). Obviously at least one of your friends doesn't understand the value if he's assuming he can just bring in his buddy anytime to start a guitar. If I lived in your town, especially a couple years ago when I didn't have many tools or a dedicated shop space, I would have been offering to mow your lawn, wash your car, trim the hedges, fix your computer, tune up your bicycle, etc... in exchange for a little bit of shop time. I would have gladly brought my own sandpaper, chisels, bandsaw blades, etc...

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Jonathan Kendall, Siloam Springs AR

I agree this is why I stated replenish consumables instead of pay for consumables

I say just fake your own death.   

I think Hucklberry Finn had the right idea....

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

   Whether you're a hobbyist or pro, you need to keep other folks out of your shop and away from your tools. If you don't want to, then get the appropriate insurance to cover their potential injuries and possible damage to your machines and ask that they pitch in to cover the premiums. Also, ask that they chip a bit in on a regular basis to keep your tools sharp and set up safely and correctly and to help to replace them as they wear out in a much shorter time than they would if you were their sole user as you had initially intended.

   I did just this after my shop became the stop for several guys who were building their first and second guitars and had just stopped in to ask my advice and made it a habit for weeks on end until I had to lay down these few rules or requirements. Amazingly, they all stopped showing up and several of them now have reasonably tooled shops themselves and are able to do much of the work at home and without traveling to my shop.

   I saved them both travel time and gas money in the effort to save my own neck and tools and time.

    My shop is where I make my living so no one has any business being there with a tool in hand or to work unless they are taking one of my guitar building classes.

It's tough to do, but will save you headaches and heartaches in the event of an accident on one of your machines that causes injury to a freind. That and the fact that no one cares for and about your tools and machinery as much as you do.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega GuitarsKevin Gallagher38930.6445138889

Kelby, I commend you on your generosity letting friend and family use your shop and tools. I have had just a couple of visitors to my shop while working and I stopped, showed them around and then visited until they were ready to leave. I think the liability issue is very valid, and considering the variety of equipment we all use, if someone gets hurt, they probably will not return your hospitality when it comes to hospital bills. My shop time is like therapy, good music in the background, tedious woodworking going on, and overall peace and solitude. Good luck on getting things back into control

Mike
White Oak, Texas

Wow, there's a lot of great insights here. Thanks so much.

Kevin, I just read your post as I was thinking something similar --- I think the biggest favor I can do my friends is encourage them to set up their own shop. That fact will enable me to put a helpful spin on it when I tell them that Kelby's Community Woodshop is closed for business.

Good decision Kelby, it might be hard at first but you can do it, lose a friend in there maybe but you will have respect from the true friends!

[QUOTE=Kelby] Thanks, guys!

Joe, I live in Tustin. If you are ever in the area let me know and we'll hook up![/QUOTE]

That is pretty cool, I live in Lake Forest and work in Orange. Drive through Tustin every day. We should have a get together sometime. I know a few of the other guys live in the area also.

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Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust